We recorded an interesting discussion between two seasoned coaches, an extrovert and an introvert. They talked about:
• How introverts and extroverts are perceived in the professional environment
• Improving the communication with colleagues and managers
• Challenges and advice for taking on a leadership role… and more.
Anne Hurtubise has 22 years of experience in Executive Coaching, is certified in Emotional Intelligence and MBTI (Myer Briggs Type Indicator) and is the Founder/President of Emotional Intelligence Corporation (eicor.com).
Gabriela Casineanu, MSc, MBA, ORSC – Founder of Introverts Academy – has 15 years of experience in Organizational and Relationships Systems coaching (ORSC) and Career Coaching (GabrielaCasineanu.com).
Watch their dialogue (51 min. video) or read the transcript below (also available for download as a 12-page PDF file).
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Gabriela: Hello, Anne! Thank you for taking your time from your busy schedule to join me in this conversation about introversion and extroversion, especially in the corporate environment. You have so much experience in leadership coaching and you experienced first hand how leaders create an environment that allows introverts and extroverts to flourish… or not! Also, how they behave as extrovert or introvert leaders, how is their relationship with the employees… You have a lot to contribute about the work environment, but I’m pretty sure you have a lot to contribute about other aspects of life, because you’re not only an executive coach – you’re certified in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, which talks about introversion and extraversion. You’re also certified in Emotional Intelligence. So there are a lot of things we can talk about. Again, thank you for coming!
Anne: My pleasure, Gabriela, I’m a big fan of yours. So every time I can contribute I’m there.
Gabriela: Thank you so much. I have a question about this. I’m an introvert, you’re an extrovert. What do you like about me, the introvert?
Anne: I like your brain. How your brain processes information, how creative you are, you take the time to reflect versus me – as an extrovert – I move very fast, so I don’t need to have much information to make decisions. I’m an action person. So I like to move, I play tennis, I like to dance and I like to do dinners at my place; have lots of people we can talk and exchange and have a good wine, good food, and meaningful conversations. I love that. So what I love about you, in terms of your reflections, you’re very intelligent. I love the fact that you’re rational and you bring your coaching hat with you, how you communicate, how you do all the work you do, how you wrote your books. You’re very well thought; you reflect a lot. Versus me: it’s quick, quick, quick. And yes, because of that, it’s more profound. You’re right with what you say, you get it right. Because you’re more introverted, there’s more reflection and your energy is calm, it’s soothing. Versus me, it’s high energy all the time. It make you smile. So yes, I admire you. You have lots to bring to the world. I’m a big fan of yours.
Gabriela: Thank you so much. And I’m a big fan of you as an extrovert. Because I met other extroverts and they don’t get along so well with introverts. They are very loud. I would say they love to talk about themselves. They like to be in the centre of attention and we don’t like that. And there is some things happening when they clash. They don’t have that awareness that you have about extroversion and introversion. When did you find out that you’re an extrovert, and that is the opposite of an introvert? What that awareness brought you?
Anne: When I was young I was timid and shy. I thought I was more an introvert when I was younger, to call it that way – I didn’t have that vocabulary of introvert extrovert. It was just who I was. And as I got more self-aware, and knowing what I want to do and interacting with the world… I have always been a person that was very athletic. I was very involved in the teams type of sports. I think it’s when I started to coach, 22 years ago, that I found out about personality types, and introversion-extroversion. I think, with all the leadership courses I took I understood a bit more the concept of introversion and extraversion. And in leadership or in a type of role where you’re the team leader you need to balance your introverts extroverts. It could also be that I’ve done over 20 years of meditation, so I was able to centre my energy and be more calm. Leadership is always about others. And in coaching, your clients are your top priority. Therefore you listen more. So they don’t see my extroversion because, I’m tuning in with their energy. And that I can do easily. So I’m not as loud as you mentioned, some extroverts are very loud. Although if I’m in a meeting, like when I was the vice-president of the Board of a coaching association, I was always the first one to speak. You know, I’m in a meeting and if someone asked a question, it goes very quick in my mind. I will answer that during the meeting, to a point that I would tell myself “Okay, I need to stop talking first. I will let the others to speak first. Because after a while, people rely on you to speak first, especially the introverts. They say “Hugh, Anne is there, she can speak and I can think.” I often had such feedback from people who are more introverted. She said: ” I admire so much that you can speak just like that.” And of course, she’s an introvert; introverts need more time in general to speak. If they have the experience on the topic we’re talking about, they can speak freely because they know what to do or what to say.
Gabriela: Since you’re talking about meetings, I want to share my experience with meetings. Introverts don’t like the authority. They are intimidated by people who they perceive as having power and authority. So when I was going to a meeting, my voice was trembling. Even if I had something to say, I didn’t want to say, I preferred just to listen. And sometimes I had things that other people didn’t bring up. It had to be something very, very important with big consequences for me to speak up. And, by doing that, I got better in time but my voice was still trembling. Until I realized that I’m an introvert, I was wondering what’s happening. Because I can speak one-on-one very easily. It’s not a problem. But when I was in those meetings, especially where there are directors or higher managers in the meeting, I couldn’t talk. So, it’s not only that we need to think; it’s also something else, another layer on top of it, that makes us kind of…
Anne: I’m curious about that. Can I ask you a question?
Gabriela: Sure, go ahead!
Anne
These type of authority, directors or whatever… do you feel that they were not humble enough? Or abusing of their authority? They were not authentic somehow; they were abusing of their authority perhaps in the tone of their voice, that they wanted to say: ”I’m the boss and you better listen to me.” That type of energy?
Gabriela
No, they were not bossy managers. And it happened every time when I had to go to a meeting. At one point, I worked in a company with a teams working on each project. And the team members were from different departments. Even I knew the colleagues from other departments, I was still feeling that during the meeting. I could go to any of those colleagues and have a good conversation one-on-one; but in a meeting, I couldn’t bring myself to talk.
Anne: Okay. So it was not about the director or the person who was leading the meeting. It was more being with a group.
Gabriela: Yes. As you know, introverts don’t feel very comfortable when they are in a larger group, especially when they are with people they don’t know. There are a lot of things that come into place to make us feel not at ease in those circumstances.
Anne: Do you want me to give you ideas around that?
Gabriela: I’m much better now. But if you have ideas for other people, please go ahead.
Anne: So from what I’m hearing – and I will just brainstorm with you about that – the number one fear for human being is public speaking. So as an introvert, when you are in, in a group, it’s a bit like public speaking. How does that sound for you?
Gabriela : I wouldn’t agree too much. Because what I realized… At that level, I was just participating in a meeting; I was part of the group. But as an introvert, when I’m leading a project or a group I don’t have a problem speaking. When I finally got in a leadership role, I’m like “Oh, this is very comfortable to me.” But in that middle section – being part of a group – I’m not too comfortable. I’m not at ease to be a member of a group because I have so many ideas, I see so many things that can be done. I’m like “Let’s do it!” in my mind. I’m not so active as part of a group. But as soon as I get to a leadership role, it’s totally different. So what you’re saying about public speaking… I think I overcome it – as an introvert – because I get engaged in leadership roles for causes that I care about. So I’m motivated from inside. So public speaking… I don’t even call it public speaking at that point. It’s just, I have something to say and that pushes me to go to there and speak. I think it’s more about reframing it. You call it public speaking; I call it caring about a cause and sharing your opinion, trying to make the change that you want.
Anne: As you shared this story, I recalled a director that I was coaching; he is an introvert. And when they promoted him as VP, he took the authority because now “I was the leader.” He could make all the decisions and people around him were saying: “We don’t recognize him.” Just like you. Because now it was his position, making all the decisions. And he was leading the meetings, and he looked like an extrovert and nobody could recognize him!
Gabriela: I like what you’re saying. I found that people make assumptions based on what they see, but it’s not easy to recognize an introvert. If I do a workshop, I’m very talkative and energetic and people are like “There’s no way you’re an introvert!” I’m like “Ask me how much time I need to recharge my batteries after.” I’m totally an introvert, but I do workshops on the topics I’m interested in. Don’t ask me to do a workshop on something I’m not interested in, I won’t even go there. If it’s something you – an introvert – are really passionate about, that energy from inside is projected outside, and people can see your passion. They connect with you at that level. You’re not afraid to make the decisions at that point. I think the problem for introverts is to go from this [lower] level, to this [higher] level, how they make the jump from not being comfortable in the workplace, for example, into a leadership role. Do you have any suggestions?
Anne: It’s practice… practice… practice. As you said, the more you know your topic the more you’re knowledgeable in your role. And it’s practice: doing presentation in front of a group, at your job… practice, practice. And often those people need to have what I call the ABC on how to do aa presentation. And when they know how to do it, then they feel more comfortable because it’s more about knowledge. You need to know how to do it. It could be as simple as how often you need to move in front of the room. Or not putting your back in front of the group and all of the tips and best practices of presenting in front of a group, or just leading a meeting. You know, creating the agenda, putting the timeline to each topic… and when they are organized that way they can function well and they learn how to do it. And after they do a presentation, the manager can provide them feedback and encourage them to continue doing it. So this way they feel mentored and coached, and they progress like this. Because I coach many, many CEOs and senior VP who are introverts and nobody knows – just like you said – they all think they are extroverts. And when they need to be in public and talk, and present the townhouse meetings to announce a new direction of the company, they act as very extroverted. It’s just after, like you said, they need to rebuild their energy.
Gabriela: And I think there’s also something else, which I call the Introvert Hero Journey. Because when you’re young, you might not have that energy. You don’t know so much how to behave, what you want, how you really are, what are your strengths… But in time you learn more about yourself, you become more confident and you project more confidence. You get new opportunities and you get to that level where, when you are a leader, you have no problem speaking in front of others. I have another situation that I want to discuss with you. I was working in a company and one of my colleagues from another department was very upset because her colleague was promoted as team leader and she was not. She said: “Look, I work much better than he does. All the time he’s reaching out to the manager, talking every day about something not important… and guess who was promoted? He was promoted as team leader!” My opinion: because he was doing that, the manager knew more about him; he didn’t know too much about her, especially her communication skills, which are important for a team leader position. The manager didn’t know too much about her skills corresponding to the next level. Because if you want to move to the next level, you have to prove that you have those skills before even getting there. What’s your perspective on that?
Anne: Yes. It’s part of emotional intelligence. You need to be able to influence and how we influence is through communication. This extrovert was talking a lot with his manager versus the introvert who was more at her desk and doing her work. And it appears that the manager was not doing enough performance appraisal to have a chance to go deeper with this introvert. So the people were talking a lot get promoted often. And they might cap at some point though, because they might not be able to go to the next level or they reach the Peter principle. That means at some point you are not competent anymore and you cannot succeed more. And it’s not a good place to be.
Gabriela: Any suggestions for the introverts who are in that situation?
Anne: They need to communicate more, touch base with their manager. And they get the chance in the performance appraisal to express what they want. For instance, if this person never mentioned that she wanted to be promoted, the manager didn’t know. The manager should ask “What’s your goal? Where do you want to be in three years?” So the introverts need to share their goals. I believe the manager should say to this person what he needs to do, what she needs to do. This morning I was in a coaching call with a director who wants to promote his direct report to a director level for a division and he said: “He’s very introverted, he needs to step up if he wants this role.” Since he has his performance appraisal to do this afternoon, we discussed a few tips and I asked: “In your view, what does he need to improve to access the director role?” He spoke about: he’s too disengaged in meetings, he never speaks. So I said: “You could do an exercise that he needs to speak at least once at every meeting. To start like this, once.” He said: “Well, he’s always looking at his Apple watch every time it buzz, because an email comes in.” So he needs to stop that behaviour, because it looks disengaged. His body language shows that also; he’s slouching in the chair is the chair so he’s not engaged. He needs to work on all these things in order to access to the next level. You need to show that you engage, that you can speak out. Because the manager was saying, like you said, he’s brilliant. He knows what he needs to do. And he just need to show the emotional intelligence competencies to be a leader, which is influence. I think leadership is being able to show that you’re a team player that you can work, you can brainstorm in teams… And all that, or a lot more of extroverted skills. Because leadership is about others. How can you contribute and ensure that people are brainstorming and come up with the best decision. The leader needs to share the vision, deal with conflicts. Some introverts might avoid the conflicts. They might decide to not bring it up. And giving him tools on how to express his feelings. You know, “I’m concerned about what was discussed because of this, this, this… When we did that in the past, this was not working. What would you recommend that we do to overcome that challenge?” So, as you can see, these competencies are linked to communication.
Gabriela: What I found, the introverts are actually good at communicating one-on-one, especially if they feel the good in the company of the other person. And also they are very good at communicating in nonverbal ways. Which is not the case in the work environment, usually. So, we’re very good at communicating in writing, in expressing what we want to say in different ways (even body language, like you said). When he was disengaged, maybe he was not really interested. He didn’t hide it, but he didn’t find the topic interested enough. Or maybe he had something to say, but didn’t have the chance to say… so there could be many things that happened at the time. What I think introverts can also do, try to open up more in any way – like you’re saying. They don’t need to wait wait for a meeting with a manager or with the team to share their opinion. They can share it in writing, they can share it with colleagues. Introverts are very good at collaborating as well. I’m a little bit surprised when you’re saying that they’re not team players. I found that introverts are very good team players, but they don’t show up in the same way as extroverts. Because we care about the team and we want the team to move forward, to collaborate and do good work… But we’re not like “Hey, let’s go… Let’s go… Let’s do it!” It’s a different style of expressing the same thing. So what I found is they need to understand each other. Extroverts need to understand introverts (introversion) and introverts need to understand extroverts because they have complimentary characteristics, which I call strengths. So if you have an extrovert who likes competition and an introvert who likes collaboration is not easy to make them collaborate, for example. And for an introvert, that confrontation might be overwhelming so you might have the tendency to avoid it. This brings me into the next question. What suggestions do you have for the people who are part of an extrovert-introvert relationship or in the workplace? How can they get along better? Do you have any suggestions for that?
Anne: If a manager is extroverted, when he requests an introvert to participate in the meeting, he needs to communicate to the introvert ahead of time, to give him information. “I want you today to speak about that at the meeting.” When you give time to an introvert to think, then they will be ready in the meeting to contribute. And you’re right; they like to contribute but they don’t like to be put on the spot.
Gabriela: Talking about that. I found myself in a situation at the beginning of my career, when I was put on the spot my mind went blank.
Anne: That’s it!
Gabriela: I couldn’t think. I couldn’t come up with something.
Anne: Exactly.
Gabriela: It takes time to get over that. So I totally agree with you that we need time. And we also need time because we can get a lot of ideas if you give us time. But if you put us on the spot, we don’t have enough time to make all the correlations in our head to give you good answers . So that are pros and cons about that.
Anne: Definitely. Let me give you an example. I was coaching in a hospital the senior leadership team, and the CEO was saying: “Oh, I hate my CFO. We spent two hours in a strategic meeting and five minutes prior to the end of the meeting, he shared with us a big thing… a bomb!” And she said: “Why didn’t you share that before? Now we have no more time to talk about it.” CFO said: “I could not. It’s just through the conversation I came up with that.” So for her, she learned after that, she needed to give him a lot of information about the vision, what they wanted to discuss at that meeting, for him to be able to think and come up sooner with the suggestions and the solutions.
Gabriela: Another thing. I was working for a new company and during the lunch break, I was taking my lunch and go out. The building was by the lake and it was sunny outside. As an introvert, I love to take my break to recharge my energy. And I was perceived that I was not a team player, that I’m not good at communicating with others. So I think, what I could do differently in a situation like this: I should say from the beginning how I am, what are my expectation from the workplace… And if they understand me, they will be able to communicate with me in a different way, instead of putting me in a box: I’m not a team player and that’s it. Because it doesn’t help anyone if you just put labels. So it’s on both sides that need to put some effort to understand each other.
Anne: Yes. And for an introvert, they need to know that about themselves. It’s part of the emotional intelligence: being emotionally self-aware of what are your needs and being able to communicate that. As an example, this occurs all the time in the workplace depending of the field you are in. Like if you are in a team of engineers, they’re mainly a high percentage of introverts. If you go in marketing, there are more extroverts and sometimes this odd balls in these teams, and this is where it’s clashing. So when you’re emotionally self aware that you need time to recharge and go to the lake, you can share that. And in addition, what you can do sometimes is to go and have a dinner or a lunch with them at some point.
Gabriela: At some point, well said! Because I couldn’t handle to go every week, every day.
Anne: Exactly. So when you have more energy or if they plan to do a lunch. When we were not confined (due to the pandemic) we were going to the office, they were doing lunch on Friday. Maybe a Friday per month, you can join them.
Gabriela: Even that was hard.
Anne: I know. I know. So again, it’s just being aware that it’s about others, not just about us. And for the extrovert, is do less: when they know that an introvert is coming to perhaps speak less and ask you a question to contribute.
Gabriela: I like that.
Anne: Yes. That’s how it needs to work to balance the excess of energy on both side to come in the middle.
Gabriela: Yeah. But I don’t agree when you said that it’s about others. Actually, I’m thinking about others: in order to be able to perform well the second half of the day. I need to take that break. So I’m thinking about others, I just need that break.
Anne: Yes. When I say it’s about others, it’s about enhancing the relationship. It’s about when you’re a team leader and you’re an introvert. Sometimes you will need to go have lunch with them to show that you’re there. It’s in that case. So for you, you can do it when you know that in the afternoon – when your schedule is light – so you can recharge your energy working on your own. Versus when you have meetings scheduled back to back, then you have no choice to redo your energy. It’s to buffer the time for you to be able to recharge.
Gabriela: I understand. I’m not in that position anymore. I totally understand and I appreciate your advice. What do you think a leader could do to create an environment where both introverts and extroverts can flourish? Because we know that the environments they flourish are different. So what are your suggestions for the environment?
Anne: So the leaders need to provide workshops for team building in that regard. So for instance, when I do the Myers-Briggs type of workshops, we do exercises. First we do the report and everybody is able to see if they are in the introversion or extroversion area of the spectrum. And then I will do an exercise. I put all the extroverts on one side of the room and the introverts on another side. And we ask them questions like you do with me: what do you admire from the other group? And then we hear them, what you don’t like about the other group. So by doing these type of exercise we create awareness. And at the end, people are more understanding of who they are working with. And in order to adapt. It’s like putting water in your wine… to not win all the time, you know? The extroverts need to reduce their extroversion and the introverts need to become a bit more extroverted.
Gabriela: Instead of reduce and increase, I like to say you need to learn more of the other skills because they bring some positive to your career. So as an introvert, if you learn how to speak with other people… not learn how to speak, because you know how to speak. If you are more willing to speak and open up and share what you think, other people will get a better idea who you are, what you think, and what you can do. And an extrovert, like you’re saying: stop, listen, ask questions because it will help you not only with introverts but in general. Instead of just being in the centre of attention and talking all the time, you might miss some ideas, some opportunities that are there if you don’t stop and listen, and ask questions to get the opinion of others. So there are benefits. These are skills that you can learn, but you have to be willing to.
Anne: Yes, definitely. And I like your definition of learning the skills of the others. Often in the position of leadership, when they know the role of what their direct reports are doing, it computes much quicker. I can think of two examples. A vice president of an international company is an introvert and the CEO is an introvert, but because they know so much the business, when they do meetings, they interrupt the people because either they’re taking too long or because they’re impatient – even as introverts they are impatient – and they will cut off the other person. And this doesn’t help the introverts or others to continue contributing ideas, because they get shut off.
Gabriela: I’m guilty of that too. I have to pay attention to not do it so often. Any other ideas about how introverts can improve? Not only in the workplace, in general in life. And how extroverts can improve. I like that we have our discussion between an extrovert and an introvert, so we get to know each other.
Anne: I often coach people about how to do the small talk. And for introverts is all about preparation, preparation, preparation. So the idea is to prepare some open-ended questions to start the conversation. And a lot of them have created cue card, you know, a small piece of paper that is a bit thick and they leave in their wallet. So when they’re going to meet someone – that was the time that they were going to conferences, engineer conferences for example – they had to interact with a lot of people, and they sit and they don’t know what to say. So they can prepare their questions in order to allow the small talk. And the goal of the open-ended question is… it’s not you need to talk once you launched a question… it’s the others who are talking. And from that you can try to find mutual interests. If they talk about something that you’re interested in ,then you can build on the conversation. And because you’re passionate about it, then the conversation goes smoothly. So preparation, try to find mutual interests, and go one question at a time to see what you could do as mutual interests.
Gabriela: In my case, as an introvert, I don’t like the term small talk. So when you say “you should do small talk…” No, I don’t.
Anne: It’s about starting the conversation.
Gabriela: For me, I like to reframe it. It’s about being curious. And when you’re curious, you ask a question: What are you doing here? What do you like about this presentation? So I’m asking a question and the other person says something, and then the communication can start from there. So I like to reframe things. Like the extroverts talk a lot about networking, you should do networking all the time. You don’t have to do networking, but do you want information? Do you want opportunities? Go find them! And in the process you will do networking, but it’s not networking. It’s still being curious to find out what you want.
Anne: I love that reframing.
Gabriela: When I’m talking about introverts and extroverts’ innate characteristics, I’m considering them strengths. And someone told me, it’s a brilliant idea to consider them strengths because you reframe the idea of characteristic into a strength. And when it’s a strength, you want to use it. It’s in your advantage to use it. So if we just shift our mind about the things that we don’t like, we can find other ways. And the introverts are very creative in finding different ways of doing things. So to me, is more about if you’re a creative person, if you’re curious, just find something else to do. If someone telling you “you should talk in the meeting.” I don’t need to talk in the meeting, but if I have an important idea the others might might miss if I don’t talk about it. So make me connect with something that’s more meaningful. And that will pushed me into “I have to share this idea because no one said it and is important.” So we need to reframe these things. No, just like ad litteram, the word, but the thing behind it and the purpose of that action.
Anne: I love your reframing. And I just want to say that it’s not all introverts or extroverts who are curious. You are very curious because you have other letters in your Myers Briggs that make you curious. There is are some introverts, for them is you give them the work and they will do step by step and they need to work with direction. Not you. Just like there are extroverts, curiosity for me is my number one strength. So then I can create, I’ve had my own company for over 33 years. And I’m a self starter because I’m curious, and things like that. There are extroverts who are just like the introverts, they need direction – they just do step by step. As an example, there are people who work in accounting and the people who work in the technical field of engineering… they don’t want to be promoted. They’re happy just to do that and they’re fulfilled in their life. So those who have less curiosity or they’re less creative, they just like to do their job. And their main interest might be their family. And that’s okay.
Gabriela: They might be creative with the family.
Anne: Yes. And their creativity might not be very high like yours.
Gabriela: When I’m talking about creativity, I’m not saying being creative in arts, writing… I’m talking about something different – and I’m reaching into other area. I’m talking about intuition, about being inspired. I’m talking about that creative flow that’s going through you. If you’re open to it, you can find opportunities. You can find your own ways of doing things. You can find ideas. So I’m talking about that kind of curiosity, just being open to see what else you can do here. For me that’s curiosity and creativity.
Anne: Yes. And some don’t are not interested in that.
Gabriela: That’s okay.
Anne: What I’m saying is it’s not about introversion or extroversion. There’s some people who just like to do their work. They want to stay as a single contributor all their career. And they’re okay with that. So for them, they go see their manager, “I have a problem” and they don’t bring solution. So when I coached their manager, I said: “Stop that. What can you for them to bring you solutions to their problems?” So when the manager is saying “Okay, from now on, I want you to bring solutions”… so then they’re forced to be more creative and to be more self-sufficient.
Anne: Yeah. It something that you can learn, if you don’t have it, that’s for sure.
Gabriela: Yes, definitely.
Gabriela: When you’re talking about some people are okay to just comply with orders and do the tasks… I recently read a book about the four tendencies. And it has nothing to do with introversion and extroversion, but it has a lot more to do with what you’re saying. There are people who comply very well with what the boss says, they are called Upholders, and they can also comply with their expectations; if they set goals, they’ll achieve them. There are other people who comply with one, but they don’t comply with the other. And there are rebels who don’t comply with any .
Anne: Exactly.
Gabriela: So when you’re saying that there are people who just like to do their job, I’m seeing more in terms of Upholders, Obligers, Rebels, and… I don’t remember the forth one. There are several layers, I think, we’re just discussing up to now extroversion and introversion. But on top of this, like you’re saying, in Myers Briggs, there are other layers, other spectrums that you can look into and to understand that … I don’t know, to me is a fascinating world. And also, I think introverts – because they have a tendency to observe the outside world and the internal world – they love everything that is related to psychology… to think, to reflect, to notice… They are very good at observing social interactions as well. Even if they don’t say much about it, but they perceive what’s happening. So there are a lot of things that introverts are good at. Sometimes I notice they are not able to show that in the workplace. The job interview is not conducted in a way to allow the introverts to show the qualities. So I think there are a lot of things to be done in that area.
Anne: I would say that there are some introverts like you who are more caring than others. And this is in the other letters of the Myers-Briggs. I know and I’ve coached engineers who were not caring at all, very introverted. When they talk to someone, to you, they cannot look at you in the eyes. They are always looking up, down, or aside. So they’re not connected to the person and they cannot observe. They cannot read the non-verbal because they don’t look at the person. And when I coached someone like this, an introvert who is just in his head, not in his heart. And that’s the balance of the emotional intelligence, to balance your head and your heart. And introvert like this, which just in his head, it’s harder to connect and harder to observe, harder to put themselves in the shoes of the person. They don’t display empathy. They don’t want to listen. They don’t want to hear problems. Someone was too emotional. They cannot handle the employees like this… “Oh, it’s too emotional.” And they don’t have the skills.
Gabriela: That’s more related to the emotional intelligence that you were talking earlier. By the way, I’m an engineer as well. I have 18 years in engineering.
Anne: I know. That’s why I use those examples. You’re probably the odd ball between engineers, you have more compassion than many others. Isn’t it?
Gabriela: I don’t know, because I left the fields many years ago, in 2006. At that point, I didn’t know much about introversion. I did the MBTI test but after I realized that I wanted to change careers to coaching. So when I did the MBTI test was just a confirmation of what I realized by introspection. So for me, was an easy way to move forward as I knew what I want. But I felt all the time when I was in the engineering field that I don’t belong there. I didn’t really get satisfaction from that profession.
Anne: And here, I want to share with you what went in my mind when I heard you did your Myers-Briggs. As an extrovert, I wanted to know your Myers Briggs but now I’m refraining. I’m not asking the question because we’re live and I don’t want to put you in that spot of sharing something that you may not want to share with the group.
Gabriela: I’m totally ok sharing.
Anne: I just want to show you what’s going on in the mind of an extrovert. And if I was not aware of how this question could land, I would ask without thinking of the consequences of putting you on the hot seat.
Gabriela: Thanks for doing that. I’m totally ok, I’m an INFP.
Anne: INFP. And N is your intuition. That’s why you’re so creative and you have a big picture thinking. And the feeler, the feeling is you care about others, so you will feel the people. And you’re aware, you can observe and you know how people feel. Most engineers will be I S T P or J. So the S is sensing all the details of the engineering, making sure that their calculation and schematic are accurate, there’re no errors to build whatever it needs to be build. And they’re more thinking they’re less feeling.
Gabriela: I was intuitive from the beginning. I used to share that my mom was very good at math. When I started school, I wasn’t good with at math. My mom taught me how to think logically, how to solve math problems. So I became very good at math and physics, and it seemed logically to go into an engineering profession. I developed that sensing that you’re talking about. But when I realized that I’m not comfortable in this field, I wanted to do something else. I reconnected with my intuition, I get a lot of insights from it. So even if the outside world is pushing you in another direction, it’s not going away. That’s what I’m saying: if you become aware of what’s happening to you, you realize if you’re not in the right profession. And you might want to shift, gradually, toward something you’re more passionate about, or at least feel more comfortable. That was my career path.
Anne: Yes. And what I’m hearing is what your mom taught you the logical, the maths, the physics, This flexed you from the feeling to the thinking, you became more logical to do the engineering work. And then it was not fulfilling because you’re more filler. You wanted to provide more, and the coaching world attracts a lot of feelers.
Gabriela: And it’s a good skill to have, even if you’re a coach.
Anne: Yes, definitely.
Gabriela: Any final words that you would like to say?
Anne: The final words would be in terms of wisdom. Accept who you are and decide to work at fine tuning or reframing what you would like to practice more, to become more rounded. Before the buzz of emotional intelligence, it was maturity. We learn from practicing and we expand our skills. Whether we’re introverts or extroverts and we can become whoever we want to be if we want to put the energy to continue what I call… If we take the analogy of a diamond: we have some rough edges. And over time, we polish those edges to become very shiny, more whole and more authentic human beings in the workplace and in our life so that we can reach the level of self actualization. Be patient with yourself and continue developing if you wish. It’s a lifetime process.
Gabriela: I totally agree. I came to realize that life is a self discovery journey. We learn something through each experience. And I love what you said: we all tend to become a whole. How I see it: if I’m looking at the introversion-extroversion spectrum, in time we all tend to come to the centre. We learn some of the other’s skills and they make us function better. They help us become a whole person, fully functional, joyful… Self actualization, like you’re saying. Thank you so much for sharing! And thanks again for your time and insights!
Anne: It was fun! Thank you.